Curse

Weezer_Blue · Apr 16, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

All games are skill > time spent. Even world of warcraft: At a certain point, everyone gets to level 60 and finally gets their überweapons and then it's skill over time spent. How is Guild Wars any different than WoW? Instead of grinding levels, you grind skills, runes, and weapon mod unlocks.

Ok, here's a suggestion: Lets make everything in Guild Wars merged together so that it's not just the PvPers getting screwed by this idea to merge the game types together: Oh wait, someone already thought up the parody.

http://guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39505

If you think that's a bad idea, then not having faster unlocks is also a bad idea. It's simple.

WasAGuest · Apr 16, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Ok, here's a suggestion: Lets make everything in Guild Wars merged together so that it's not just the PvPers getting screwed by this idea to merge the game types together: Oh wait, someone already thought up the parody.

http://guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39505

If you think that's a bad idea, then not having faster unlocks is also a bad idea. It's simple.

hehe, that's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard for this game... the link, that is. Sounded like a bad UT mod or something.

Edit: Sorry for the totally off topic post, but that was a funny read.

I hope it was a joke though, cause I did laugh at it... if not, I apologise to the poster of that... umm, suggestion.

Rey Lentless · Apr 16, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

LOL

Like half the people in that thread have some UAS reference in their signature. It's worth reading though.. very amusing.

You get faction, you don't have to play pve. Figure it out.

You had something to bitch about when the game came out.. but you do get faction now and it is at a decent rate. This isn't an fps, it isn't an rts.. it is an rpg and a hybrid that mixes pve and pvp elements. You do have to unlock content. You don't like that?

Find another game already.

Weezer_Blue · Apr 16, 2006, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

LOL

Like half the people in that thread have some UAS reference in their signature. It's worth reading though.. very amusing.

Yeah, if you had scanned the Off Topic section you would have seen a "Support UAX" thread where the poster told everyone to make a UAX sloganizer. I find it amusing too.

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You get faction, you don't have to play pve. Figure it out.

You need skills to PvP. You need faction to get skills... Or you could PvE to get skills. You do have to PvE. Have you had some PvP experience yet, or should I continue to ignore you? Sure, you could do it with premades, but it would take a thousand times longer than doing it through PvE where doing a quickie 2 minute quest can get you 2 or 3 skills.

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You had something to bitch about when the game came out.. but you do get faction now and it is at a decent rate. This isn't an fps, it isn't an rts.. it is an rpg and a hybrid that mixes pve and pvp elements. You do have to unlock content. You don't like that?

We've given you links - Hell, you've given yourself links - to prove that Guild Wars is an RPG that was intended to closely focus on PvP competition as well as PvE. I'm sorry I didn't interpret "Your skill will be your Legend: You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat", as "Your unlocks will determine your legend: You'll prove that you need hours played and unlocks to get into any decent guild, regardless of your skill as a gamer. Whether battling in GvG or in Tombs, it will always be your skills and equipment unlocks that earns you a place in a team or waiting 20 more hours for someone to accept you!"

Obviously, a game marketed to competitive and casual players shouldn't be for competitive casual players.

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Find another game already.

Why don't you find me another Competitive Online RPG? As far as I can tell, there are none. It doesn't bother me that your player type (PvE) plays the game. It bothers me that you think that your playertype is the only one entitled to fun without restrictions. I wish selfish gamers would leave the internet, personally.

By the way, you never got the point of the joke thread from TGH. It was intended to make you realize how PvE would feel if you were forced to play PvP all the time, or never get anywhere with the game. I have no problem with PvE when I can play it at my liesure. I have a problem when it's forced upon me. You can deny this all you want, but there isn't a player in a top 300 guild who has gotten where he/she is through only faction. Infact, most of the players competing in the World Competition are using PvE characters because of their versatility and better items (negative energy, +10% attack speed wands, shields, armour sets, more skill sets, rune sets, etc.)

As I said before, this isn't going to go anywhere until you try to PvP on a highly competitive level, but you won't do that because that's like you asking me to PvE more than I find entertaining.

Rey Lentless · Apr 16, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Yeah, if you had scanned the Off Topic section you would have seen a "Support UAX" thread where the poster told everyone to make a UAX sloganizer. I find it amusing too.

Waste of time focusing on something that isn't going to happen.

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You need skills to PvP. You need faction to get skills... Or you could PvE to get skills. You do have to PvE. Have you had some PvP experience yet, or should I continue to ignore you? Sure, you could do it with premades, but it would take a thousand times longer than doing it through PvE where doing a quickie 2 minute quest can get you 2 or 3 skills.

You're already past the point of having to start out with premades. You have a pool of content to use, and you'll unlock faction content by playing as you have been doing. New GW players aren't going to be competitive in pvp whether there's an UAX or not. Since anyone who pvps often and wants to be highly competitive.. gains more (much more) faction than they can even spend, I find the system working fine. You want the content immediately.. it's an rpg and it isn't going to happen.

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Why don't you find me another Competitive Online RPG? As far as I can tell, there are none.

Look, rpgs focus heavily around character development. You gain level, skills, attributes, etc.. and rpgs.. and starting w/ everything in the game.. just doesn't go together. If you were in beta, like someone mentioned, then you knew this before you bought the game. Why, after a year later, are you continuing to complain about it? I wish I could find you a different game, you could be bitching about that one instead.

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It doesn't bother me that your player type (PvE) plays the game. It bothers me that you think that your playertype is the only one entitled to fun without restrictions. I wish selfish gamers would leave the internet, personally.

I'm sorry that it's inconceivable to you that someone else that plays pvp doesn't have the same complaints that you do. Even though I'm almost strictly a pvper, I understand why an rpg has and should have character development elements.. even in the pvp. Their vision involves linking pve and pvp, and they seem to be trying to connect it even more. That's their vision, and you have to accept that.. or accept that this isn't the game for you. I think the faction's fine, and I don't feel like I should have an UAX button when I install factions. I am annoyed that I won't be able to spend the million+ faction that I would have earned if there wasn't a cap.. but I'm hoping they address that too. We all have a choice to have skill pts waiting for us to cash in, if unlocking content quicker.. is a priority.. but it's not forced.

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You can deny this all you want, but there isn't a player in a top 300 guild who has gotten where he/she is through only faction.

That's because the game's original state is vastly different than it is now.

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Infact, most of the players competing in the World Competition are using PvE characters because of their versatility and better items

This.. contrary to what you believe.. highly refutes any point you have. Using a pve character means you have a very specific build. Your set of equipment, armor, runes, etc.. have a specified role. The content needed to play that role? Very small. It doesn't require UAX, in fact.. it only requires the 8 skills on your bar.. everything else can just be bought. I do think there is an issue with pve characters being superior because of the additional sets of armor, possible switches, and equipment that isn't available on pvp only characters.. and hopefully they'll address that. Loot is still minimal in this game however, and I think they still intend to have pvp only loot = pve loot.

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As I said before, this isn't going to go anywhere until you try to PvP on a highly competitive level, but you won't do that because that's like you asking me to PvE more than I find entertaining.

I've done more than tried. You can continue to pretend that your view is shared by the pvp community, and that anyone who doesn't agree with your selfish viewpoints.. must not even play pvp.. but it doesn't make it so. Other people are capable of looking at more than just their own wants.. and might even consider other people. There's people out there that would enjoy the game less if they made changes you want, and you're not more important than them.. and neither am I.

Weezer_Blue · Apr 16, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Waste of time focusing on something that isn't going to happen.

It's mostly a joke. Since no reason was ever given as to why there's no UAX system for PvP-out-of-the-box other than what amounts to "because", I find it funny to have it in my signature. Grow a sense of humor.

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You're already past the point of having to start out with premades. You have a pool of content to use, and you'll unlock faction content by playing as you have been doing. New GW players aren't going to be competitive in pvp whether there's an UAX or not. Since anyone who pvps often and wants to be highly competitive.. gains more (much more) faction than they can even spend, I find the system working fine. You want the content immediately.. it's an rpg and it isn't going to happen.

The problem isn't from veteran players or hardcore players. It's new players that are screwed. I completely disagree that new players "aren't going to be competitive in pvp whether there's an UAX or not". There were hundreds of new players during the betas, and thousands such as myself that only had the opportunity to play 3 days out of every month, and we were all "competitive" with that handy UAS button. There are also some builds which work fairly well that don't require too much coordination. You repetitively completely undestimate the potential of a new player.

I've tried to get several of my friends to play Guild Wars, all of which from competitive backgrounds (RTS's, FPS's, etc.), and several from RPG's. The competitive players really hated the amount of time it took to achieve a simple build. Even IWAY requires 4-5 hours of random arenas faction farming (much more with un-upgraded premades). Aside from basic controls, most of the gamers I know have no trouble with learning to play guild wars. Using a build and making one up are completely different levels.

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Look, rpgs focus heavily around character development. You gain level, skills, attributes, etc.. and rpgs.. and starting w/ everything in the game.. just doesn't go together.

PvP = Balanced playing field. Kill each other and claim victory.
PvE = Character developement, role playing, item hunting, farming, missions, etc.

Is that somehow hard for you to understand? PvP + Character Developement = Bad.

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If you were in beta, like someone mentioned, then you knew this before you bought the game. Why, after a year later, are you continuing to complain about it? I wish I could find you a different game, you could be bitching about that one instead.

Actually, before I bought the game, me and over a thousand other people thought they were getting the game they were advertised: a fun competitive game that cut out the stupid cliches of the RPG, that had both good PvE and open PvP.

Again with the "bitching". Quit bitching about my bitching and maybe you can start bitching for compromised improvements that would stop my bitching. Your irrelevant flaming is getting you nowhere.

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I'm sorry that it's inconceivable to you that someone else that plays pvp doesn't have the same complaints that you do. Even though I'm almost strictly a pvper, I understand why an rpg has and should have character development elements.. even in the pvp. Their vision involves linking pve and pvp, and they seem to be trying to connect it even more. That's their vision, and you have to accept that.. or accept that this isn't the game for you. I think the faction's fine, and I don't feel like I should have an UAX button when I install factions. I am annoyed that I won't be able to spend the million+ faction that I would have earned if there wasn't a cap.. but I'm hoping they address that too. We all have a choice to have skill pts waiting for us to cash in, if unlocking content quicker.. is a priority.. but it's not forced.

I'm not the one who turned this into a UAX bitch thread. Every PvPer knows that's a pipedream (even if it's not their pipedream). The fact that players compromise but you are too stubborn to realize that they are willing to sacrafice some of their fun for the oppinions of other players aggrevates me. We were somewhat settled in with the current system, even if it was a grindfest and impossible to get a single friend, even a hardcore competitive gamer, into the game. That's not what's gotten on my nerves. It's that despite still existing unlock speed problems, and grind curve problems, and generally being forced to play one side of the game before you can have fun with the other, it is speculated that A.Net is now going to increase the severity of these problems by making the fastest way to unlock skills a rarity, in favor of what would appear to be a much slower way to do it. You can quit "bitching" at me over UAX. I'm in favor of it, but I'm not arguing over something that "is not in the game because we [A.net] never intended it to be in the game". That would be a waste of my time.

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That's because the game's original state is vastly different than it is now.

So your saying every single guild that has competed in the GWWC has been here since release? You may be right - I can't be certain. Even if you are correct, there isn't a single guild there that has recieved all their unlocks through faction. I would bet on it.

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This.. contrary to what you believe.. highly refutes any point you have. Using a pve character means you have a very specific build. Your set of equipment, armor, runes, etc.. have a specified role. The content needed to play that role? Very small. It doesn't require UAX, in fact.. it only requires the 8 skills on your bar.. everything else can just be bought.

Actually, most of the members of my guild who have made PvP ready PvE characters have almost all their unlocks for those characters. Who would put in the time for a PvP ready PvE monk and have him only able to run a single build? That's just illogical.

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I do think there is an issue with pve characters being superior because of the additional sets of armor, possible switches, and equipment that isn't available on pvp only characters.. and hopefully they'll address that. Loot is still minimal in this game however, and I think they still intend to have pvp only loot = pve loot.

At least we can agree on something.

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I've done more than tried. You can continue to pretend that your view is shared by the pvp community, and that anyone who doesn't agree with your selfish viewpoints.. must not even play pvp.. but it doesn't make it so.

I never said the entire PvP community agreed with me (maybe it's coincidence that most of the PvPers I know agree to some extent on these issues), and I apologize for misreading your PvE/P orientation. However it is not selfishness that drives my viewpoints - I just want everyone to have fun playing the way they want to play, as long as it doesn't trample over how someone else wants to play (and if it does, the players have to make compromises rather than screwing one type of gamer).

Dove_Song · Apr 16, 2006, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Why do PvP 'er whine sOOOooo much if they have to do a little grinding to get some of the good stuff? I remember going through this with Phrophecies. The PvE 's started owning the PvP'ers becasue we had our elites and greens...So they whine and whine ...finaly they descided they would actauly have to go out and cap some skills...found out it wasn't so bad...and all is well.

Geeze thank your lucky stars your not playing Lin2 guys...If done the Legit way; it can take up to two years of constant grinding to get your good skills. In full open anytime get PK ganked by Uber bored top level players; Losing exp every time you die: that's a long two years.

I mean jeez grab a Beverage and some buddies go kill some monsters. Make some cash and skill points (be sure to have fun doing it) and buy your skills. Or do the quests with a few differnt charcaters to unlock all the possible ones from that quest. (making money each time mind you)

When you buy any other computer game do you expect to be able to go strait to the last level, or the last boss fight with all the Uber gear and skills?

This isn't a FPS....it's an action adventure mmorpg.

Hella Good · Apr 16, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dove_Song

Why do PvP 'er whine sOOOooo much if they have to do a little grinding to get some of the good stuff? I remember going through this with Phrophecies. The PvE 's started owning the PvP'ers becasue we had our elites and greens...So they whine and whine ...finaly they descided they would actauly have to go out and cap some skills...found out it wasn't so bad...and all is well.

Geeze thank your lucky stars your not playing Lin2 guys...If done the Legit way; it can take up to two years of constant grinding to get your good skills. In full open anytime get PK ganked by Uber bored top level players; Losing exp every time you die: that's a long two years.

I mean jeez grab a Beverage and some buddies go kill some monsters. Make some cash and skill points (be sure to have fun doing it) and buy your skills. Or do the quests with a few differnt charcaters to unlock all the possible ones from that quest. (making money each time mind you)

When you buy any other computer game do you expect to be able to go strait to the last level, or the last boss fight with all the Uber gear and skills?

This isn't a FPS....it's an action adventure mmorpg.

This post made me laugh... "PvE's started owning PvP'ers because we had our elites and greens." That statement just made my day, I swear. I know greens are soooo powerful and PvP chars sooo don't have about the same items...

Not to mention comparing early Prophecies to early Factions... when the situation is completely different... How many new players do you think there will be in Factions? Maybe 10-20% of the total amount of players? Should the rest grind because of those 10-20%? No. Should PvP players do PvE to unlock skills? No. If I were to rephrase your post from a PvP point of view, it's like saying that PvE'ers should start PvP-ing to get what they need for PvE... say 15k armor, or your precious greens. I hope you understand how much it doesn't make any sense...

Dove_Song · Apr 16, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Hun...they didn't back in the day.....when PvPer were all using premades....

For example...when the game was released there was not a bow that lengthened poison time in the PvP armory...you had to unlock the bowstring first..you could however get one in PvE pretty easy....(this was way long ago when poison actualy worked in PvP)

Now though they have ramped up the PvP items etc. Which is cool...so now when I make a new PvP build I don't have to go buy a weapon ....also faction come alot faster now so it is super easy to buy skills or weapon parts you need.

btw hun I am a PvP'er....I'm also a PvE'er now beacuse I was forced too....and turns out I like it....

If you have no interest in PvE though it's pretty easy to open builds with Bathazar Faction.

And my point does make sense....Ask Ray Lentless he'll explain it to you....

The point is you can unlock skills doing which ever you prefer PvP, or PvE...or both if you like...

So as you can see your post is the one that doesn't make any sense. No one is forced to do anything they don't like to unlock skills.

Poison Ivy · Apr 16, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dove_Song

Why do PvP 'er whine sOOOooo much if they have to do a little grinding to get some of the good stuff? I remember going through this with Phrophecies. The PvE 's started owning the PvP'ers becasue we had our elites and greens...So they whine and whine ...finaly they descided they would actauly have to go out and cap some skills...found out it wasn't so bad...and all is well.

Geeze thank your lucky stars your not playing Lin2 guys...If done the Legit way; it can take up to two years of constant grinding to get your good skills. In full open anytime get PK ganked by Uber bored top level players; Losing exp every time you die: that's a long two years.

I mean jeez grab a Beverage and some buddies go kill some monsters. Make some cash and skill points (be sure to have fun doing it) and buy your skills. Or do the quests with a few differnt charcaters to unlock all the possible ones from that quest. (making money each time mind you)

When you buy any other computer game do you expect to be able to go strait to the last level, or the last boss fight with all the Uber gear and skills?

This isn't a FPS....it's an action adventure mmorpg.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha...

-----This post was cut short due to the endless (not to mention annoying) laughter from the poster-----

Dove_Song · Apr 16, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

*Starts laughing too*....oh wait...

It happened I swear....three weeks after release everyone was screamming for an UASB..."unlock all skills button"

No one else remebers that? Did I dream that?

I remember getting whispers after matches where I had used Melandru's arrows to total ownage, ppl asking me what the skill was and how to get it....

(edited in an attempt to try and spell a few words correctly)

Bhaaltazar · Apr 16, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

I like this idea... i prefer the idea it would take longer to obtain all the skills...

That would mean that when i hit lvl 20 there will be still much to do in the game ( now after u ascended all u had left to do was complete HP missions and after that have some fun with Glint quests )..

I would like even if the lvls wouldnt go up so fast... its no need for that... Going up so fast makes me feel like i am cheating... I like to work hard on char because it makes me feel i deserved the lvl.. game loses alot when u can lvl up to 20 lvl in a day or two...

What happened to games ( i.e. Baldurs gates, fall out ... ) where u played the game for few weeks to get to lvl 20. And during doing that, i didnt get bored of it ( doing quests, looking for some items u get from different boss mobs etc. )...

I approve the idea Anet came up with that u will have to obtain skills from mobs and not just the few elites we had to cap now...
At least there will be more to PvE after u hit lvl 20 and u ll have the reason to fully explore the map. Because of lousy drops and nerfing areas there r very few areas i go to now for drops or anything after i achieved the lvl 20. I hope this would change in factions and there will be drops in more than just a few places.

TGgold · Apr 16, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhaaltazar

I like this idea... i prefer the idea it would take longer to obtain all the skills...

That would mean that when i hit lvl 20 there will be still much to do in the game ( now after u ascended all u had left to do was complete HP missions and after that have some fun with Glint quests )..

I would like even if the lvls wouldnt go up so fast... its no need for that... Going up so fast makes me feel like i am cheating... I like to work hard on char because it makes me feel i deserved the lvl.. game loses alot when u can lvl up to 20 lvl in a day or two...

First: You still don't have most of the skills when you ascend. Most of the Elites and well...somewhat more useful skills are found after ascension.

Second: Do you really think levels go up fast? O.o On my..well....fifth playthrough with my ele it seems to be god-awful slow to level from 15 to 16 and 16 to 17.....and so on.

Third: I hope you don't still think that games lose a lot due to the reaching of a max level....most of Factions is designed to be for Level20 characters. Just a heads up ^_~

Fourth: I like choosing my skills, even if they take longer to get. IE: I play a geomancer, I like my geomancer skills: I don't want to be stuck as a pyromancer for the whole game :P

aron searle · Apr 16, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dove_Song

Why do PvP 'er whine sOOOooo much if they have to do a little grinding to get some of the good stuff? I remember going through this with Phrophecies. The PvE 's started owning the PvP'ers becasue we had our elites and greens...So they whine and whine ...finaly they descided they would actauly have to go out and cap some skills...found out it wasn't so bad...and all is well.

becuase my simple freind, Anet advertised that this wouldnt be the case.

I highly doubt there would be any of this "whining" as you so elequently put it, if they hadnt advertised the game the way they had.

they promised one thing, then gave something else instead.

Aeon221 · Apr 16, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

You guys are all lazy. Go play wotmud.org and see if you can find a regular pvper who hasn't had to grind for 5-10 years before he was able to consider himself okay.

Hell, if you guys manage to even figure out how to level, I will be impressed.

Boo hoo.

This game is easy enough, and I'm glad Anet has taken away the quest system in favor of a more free form skill aquisition mode. I don't need to be babysitting npcs through some silly territory so that I can get a preselected skill. I have plenty of cash, and I am glad they are giving me something to spend it on, because GWP has overstayed its welcome.

Maybe if pvers spent more time farming, and less time sync dancing, it wouldn't be an issue.

Weezer_Blue · Apr 16, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Stop comparing Guild Wars to games that are far below it's innovation. It's disgraceful to everything A.Net has tried to accomplish. Guild Wars was meant to be a competitive game, and thus should follow the model for a competitive game such as an RTS or an FPS - not for an RPG which have never been competitive until now. In what RTS or FPS must you grind for 3-6 months before you're ready to hit PvP?

PS: Dove_Song is laughable, and Bhaaltazar is playing the wrong game.

Loviatar · Apr 16, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Guild Wars was meant to be a competitive game, and thus should follow the model for a competitive game such as an RTS or an FPS - not for an RPG which have never been competitive until now. In what RTS or FPS must you grind for 3-6 months before you're ready to hit PvP?

PS: Dove_Song is laughable, and Bhaaltazar is playing the wrong game.

hi

were you even aware that this is not either a FPS or a RTS?

since it is not either of those pray tell why you think it should follow those rules?

i am aquiver with anticipation for a truly scathing remark.

asbestos jammies on.............proceed

and you should correct that to read play pvp on a level i think i deserve to be at

Weezer_Blue · Apr 16, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

hi

were you even aware that this is not either a FPS or a RTS?

since it is not either of those pray tell why you think it should follow those rules?

i am aquiver with anticipation for a truly scathing remark.

asbestos jammies on.............proceed

and you should correct that to read play pvp on a level i think i deserve to be at

RPG's are not competitive games. They never have been, and until Guild Wars came about, I haven't seen any tournaments for RPG's. For the past X years of their existance, RPG's have always been about putting in time, and then using your überweapons to kill enemies regardless of most skill (unless two maxed out characters collide by coincidence).

Guild Wars is a "Competitive" Online RPG. Being "Competitive", Guild Wars should follow a "Competitive" model that competitive games have followed. While Guild Wars is not an RTS or and FPS, it is closely related to them in the fact that it is meant to be "Competitive", and thus should follow a model much closer to these two genres. (see SaloboB's post a page back).

Lastly, while this competitive model would allow the competitive side of the game (PvP) to expand, gain more players, liberate the metagame, and generally allow for more versatile fun, it would have no effect on the parts of the game that are not meant to be competitive (PvE) - Just the way Starcraft doesn't make you unlock units in competition, but allows for a good compaign mode, and the way CounterStrike has a good competitive mode, but also allows for a great non-competitive mode in Half Life.

PS: I didn't understand your last remark: Care to elaborate?

salaboB · Apr 16, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Fair warning, this is a bit long. It's broken up into points though, so you can get a decent idea of it if you just read the first sentence or two of each paragraph :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Guild Wars is a "Competitive" Online RPG. Being "Competitive", Guild Wars should follow a "Competitive" model that competitive games have followed. While Guild Wars is not an RTS or and FPS, it is closely related to them in the fact that it is meant to be "Competitive", and thus should follow a model much closer to these two genres. (see SaloboB's post a page back).

I'd go so far as to say GuildWars isn't even an RPG, especially in its PvP aspect. Let's look at what it has that's supposed to make it one:

One of the main points of RPGs are an immersive storyline where your character's personality is revealed or developed as you progress through it. While some may feel GW has an acceptable story, I found it ridiculously shallow. I never got any decision as to where to go next (Aside from skipping ahead by just ignoring missions, and since I just land further along in the story that doesn't help anything) and never felt like my character had any personality. It was all me following orders given by random people. A Charr could have walked up to me, explained he was a good guy, and asked me to go kill other Charr for him and I'd have gone off and done it without a question asked. Yay? As well, you don't even have to do the story to progress the story, which just ruins the immersion of the game. (See my comment about skipping ahead)

Another point of RPGs is that your character is supposed to grow in experience as you progress through the story. Ideally you'll grow at a pace that the game stays challenging the entire way through. Unfortunately, GW fails at this too: You level up enough in presearing if you explore it thoroughly (And come on, the only time you shouldn't explore thoroughly is if you're not playing an RPG) that from that point on you stay ahead of the difficulty curve. Combine that with skills being utterly unrelated to your levels, and you have a game where levels don't matter. Add in the extra fact that all the serious PvP occurs at level 20, and this aspect of RPGs has really just been tossed out the window.

A third aspect of RPGs is equipment, that you're supposed to find as you progress. GW does about the same thing to equipment that it does to levels: Caps out early, and then leaves you there. Finding that valuable item is only a thrill if you like gold stuff, as 99% of gold items are junk compared to white items that you add parts to yourself.

A final aspect of RPGs is skills acquired by your character, and even that has been unlinked to your progress. You don't have to reach a certain part of the story to get skills, you can skip ahead and buy advanced abilities, then come back. Plus the way skills aren't supposed to be more effective than each other (Just different, right?) really makes it difficult to assign when each should become available.

So, four aspects of an RPG. One point to consider in all four (Not one of them makes it) of these is that they have no part whatsoever to GW's PvP: There is no story reasons behind the Hall of Heroes, there are no story reasons that it's linked to the UW/FoW. There's no in-game story for why the guilds fight each other in their competitive ladder.

I'm sure there are other aspects that could be looked at, but these are all that GuildWars has really managed to capture. And now, let's look at a First Person Shooter: Planetside.

Planetside has a storyline. It's set up three competing sides, each with their own agenda and need to dominate. Right there is more story than GW has managed to infuse into its PvP. Character development never happens, but hey it's an FPS. I feel like I know my Planetside character as well as I know my GW character, which is really sad.

Planetside has levels. As you kill people and capture bases, you gain experience. As you gain experience, you gain access to better weapons, armor, and abilities. Sounds a lot like what you gain in a normal RPG, right?

Planetside has equipment. You choose what gear you want, and as you progress in the game you get access to more, and better, combinations of gear.

Planetside has abilities. There are implants that allow your character to perform feats not available to lower level players. There is gear that affects what you can and can't do. This all comes with experience earned.

So, Planetside has all the aspects of an RPG that GW does...and it has them in its PvP. Does that make it an RPG? Not at all. Does that mean GW really doesn't qualify as an RPG, especially when you're looking at its PvP parts? I'd say it definately disqualifies it.

GW Factions is attempting to change these things. That doesn't take away Prophecies though, or the fact that it falls miserably short. As well, with the base gameplay of GW, there's very little Factions can do to add more of the necessary aspects. The best it seems to be achieving is giving your character choices (But only who you're saying yes to) and attempting to bring some story into why people PvP. Not really enough to classify the competitive parts of it as RPG.

Guildwars is more of an adventure game, like Zelda. The rules change even more when you tack Competitive onto it. Whatever it is though, it's certainly not much of an RPG.

ducktape · Apr 16, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Thank you to everyone who has engaged in discussion of the topic (Factions will have a new skill acquisition system for PVE where you will have to buy or capture most skill instead of getting skills as quest rewards) and especially thank you to everyone who has provided suggestions of ways to improve upon the new skill acquisition system. The more feedback ANet gets about the new system, the more they can improve it and make the skill acquisitions system as fair and rewarding as possible. Please keep the feedback and suggestions coming!

And not to be rude, but for people who are angry/disappointed that they have not changed the skill acquisition/unlock system for PVP players in Factions, please make a new thread and discuss your feedback and suggestions to improve PVP unlocks for Factions. This will make it easier for people to engage in discussion by separating the PVE and PVP unlock issues, and make it easier for devs to read the discussions regarding each of these different systems. While there are clearly things to debate about the unlocking systems for PVE and PVP, they really do need to be separated. Thanks.